From Turnaround to Successful Exit: Lessons in Growth Leadership with Chris Edelen
From Turnaround to Successful Exit: Lessons in Growth Leadership with Chris Edelen
When it comes to growing a home improvement business, most contractors focus on hitting revenue goals. But what if you could build a company that not only thrives today but is also positioned for a profitable sale tomorrow? That’s exactly what Chris Edelen, former CEO and owner of Safe Showers, did—and in this episode of Digital Marketing for Contractors, he shared his incredible journey with hosts Janet and Caitlyn from FatCat Strategies.
Chris has a track record of turning struggling companies into profitable, scalable businesses. From leading divisions of Fortune 500 companies to scaling Safe Showers and ultimately selling it to Sage Home, his story is packed with lessons for contractors who want to grow smarter, not just bigger.
A Career Built on Turnarounds
Chris didn’t start in home improvement—he spent 20 years climbing the corporate ladder at major companies like Kodak before moving into entrepreneurship. His first challenge? Reviving a shutter and window covering company that was hemorrhaging over a million dollars a year. Within eight months, Chris and his team had it back to breakeven.
That success launched a pattern: whether leading LeafGuard by Belden, consulting with Kohler as they built their direct-to-consumer business, or eventually acquiring Safe Showers, Chris became known as the “turnaround guy.”
Scaling Safe Showers During Uncertain Times
When Chris and his wife purchased Safe Showers in 2018, they believed in its potential—thanks in part to an exclusive product offering in the San Antonio and Austin markets. But no one could have predicted the challenges of 2020.
As the pandemic hit, many contractors slashed their marketing budgets. Chris did the opposite. With TV ad rates plummeting to “20 cents on the dollar,” he doubled down, investing heavily in brand visibility when competitors went dark.
The result? After a couple of tough months, Safe Showers skyrocketed—becoming a household name in their markets and setting the stage for explosive growth.
Preparing for an Exit
While Chris originally envisioned passing the company down to his sons, neither was interested in running the business. That’s when private equity came calling.
But selling a business isn’t as simple as signing a contract. Chris shared candid insights about the grueling due diligence process—from the six-figure legal and accounting fees to the countless hours spent gathering documentation.
His key advice? Run your business like you’re preparing to sell it—even if you aren’t. By keeping financials clean, operating under GAAP standards, and avoiding blurred lines between personal and business expenses, Chris and his wife positioned Safe Showers as a highly attractive acquisition.
Marketing Lessons for Contractors
Chris is a marketer at heart, and his growth strategy leaned heavily on data-driven decisions:
Diversify lead sources. While Safe Showers generated the majority of their own leads, Chris recognized the value of testing social media and vetted lead aggregators.
Measure what matters. For Chris, the ultimate metric was the cost of marketing per sale—but he also tracked upstream KPIs to spot trends early.
Invest in community. From donating showers to veterans to building a strong reputation through reviews, Safe Showers’ community engagement created goodwill that translated into referrals and trust.
Life After Safe Showers
After successfully selling Safe Showers to Sage Home, Chris continued consulting for nearly a year. Today, he runs Edelen Marketing and Consulting, serves on company boards, and helps other contractors prepare for growth or eventual exit. His specialty? Guiding owners to maximize their company’s value—sometimes increasing sale prices by 50–100% through proper preparation.
Key Takeaways for Contractors
Chris’s story highlights a few powerful lessons for any home improvement business owner:
Think long-term. Whether you plan to sell or pass your business down, run it like it could be sold tomorrow.
Be bold in downturns. While others pull back, smart investments in marketing can create exponential gains.
Know your numbers. Clean financials and disciplined reporting make you more attractive to buyers—and more profitable while you own the business.
Define your goals. Not every exit looks the same—understanding your values and priorities matters as much as the dollar amount.
Connect with Chris Edelen
If you’re a contractor thinking about growth, acquisitions, or preparing your business for sale, Chris is open to conversations. You can reach him directly at:
ccedlen@gmail.com 210-708-3877
Audio only version of the podcast here.
Podcast Transcript
Welcome to Digital Marketing for Contractors, a podcast for home improvement contractors to help you crush your lead goals and take your business to the next level. Join us each episode as we give you powerful insights and practical tips on the best digital marketing strategies to help you grow your home improvement business.
Janet:
Welcome back to Digital Marketing for Contractors, the podcast that helps home improvement Pros grow smarter. My name is Janet. I am the founder of Fat Cat Strategies and today I have Caitlin with me. Caitlin, wow, that started off really great.
Caitlyn:
Today’s episode is a master class in growth leadership and building a company that’s not only profitable but sellable.
Janet:
Oh, we like those words. So today our guest is Chris Edelen and we are so happy to have him on. He is not only a client but he’s the former CEO and owner of Safe Shower a company that he scaled and successfully sold to Sage Home. And that’s just one of the many major milestones in Chris’s career, which is why we’re so happy to have him on the podcast and have him share some of his expertise and knowledge. Chris has also led or advised companies like Leafguard by Belden, Kohler, and Gibson Plumbing. Chris, I hope we got all of that correct.
Chris:
Pretty close. It’s great. Good afternoon. It’s great to be with you guys and looking forward to the conversation.
Caitlyn:
Yes. So we are so happy to now have you on. Take your experience. I think you’re going out to consult other home improvement businesses on growth marketing and preparing them for exit opportunities. So we’re going to dive on into all of your experience.
Janet:
Great. So, Chris, just to kind of kick us off, why don’t you let our listeners know your full story, your background, the businesses that you’ve been involved with, and how you got started in home improvement?
Chris:
Sure. Happy to do that. Out of college, I went to work for Corporate America. I spent 20 years kind of right at the bottom in the management training program of public companies. worked for some very big companies, many of which are no longer around, Eastman Kodak being one of them. And I spent 20 years doing that. And then I had the opportunity and really wanted to run my own company. And so I was recruited to join a home services company in San Antonio that was really on the cusp of bankruptcy. And I wanted to prove that I could I wanted to prove to myself that I could run really my own business. And so I had a equity stake in the company and became CEO and had a great team. It was the company made custom wood shutters and other things. window coverings. We had quite a different array of products. The year before I took it over, it lost $1.2 million. And we were fortunate in eight months to get it to break even. And the investors decided that it was much, they thought it would take three to four years and they decided to sell the company. So I was recruited by a pretty big 500 plus million dollar company and I was division president. We were private equity back. That was really my first foray into the private equity world. And when I was running that, we had moved to Indianapolis. I was division president. I had seven company presidents reporting to me. And our youngest son was diagnosed with a rare form of leukemia. about six months after we had moved to Indianapolis. So with lots of prayers and great medical care, and after three and a half years of chemo, if he walked in the room today, you’d never know he was sick a day in his life.
Janet:
That’s fantastic, I love hearing
Chris:
that. Yeah, we’re just, we’re really blessed. But after the first year of his treatment, the doctors told us we could move. So my wife and I agreed that we needed to be back in San Antonio. where our support structure was, our family, friends, and we knew lots of people in the medical community. So I had the opportunity to take over a family business. I was the first non-family member to run it. We had 17 offices across the country. This was LeafGuard by Belden and one in Canada. The company was losing market share and the bottom line was in the red. Not much, but still in the red. We put together a great team. We closed a couple problem markets and we grew the business over 300% in the next two and a half years and grew it extremely profitable. We also entered Costco. We were one of the first home services companies to be selling through Costco. We were in 216 stores at Costco. And, you know, it was, we were also ranked that year at This was way before the private equity guys got involved in our industry. And we were the fifth largest remodeler in the country.
Janet:
That’s fantastic.
Chris:
Yeah, it was. I mean, that wasn’t our goal, but we really grew aggressively. And then I was there nine and a half years and decided it was time for another challenge. So I left the company and Kohler Corporation called me and and tried to get us to move to color wisconsin and and uh we weren’t gonna move my wife wasn’t gonna move i was open to it so uh she’s you know uh they asked me if i would consult and so long story short i did i walked in they handed me one sheet of paper with their strategy to go their first in over 140 years in business direct to consumer They had no clue what they were doing. Great, great people. I love the people there. I love the company. And it was a great opportunity. And so we built the program. The first business was the walk-in tub business. So you
Janet:
were there like day one when Kohler decided to go directly to homeowners?
Chris:
Well, I wasn’t there when they decided. The board…
Janet:
Like
Chris:
early, early days. But I was… I was the first person, Jim Lewis and I. I worked for Jim, great guy, love him. He just announced his retirement from Kohler. But I had the opportunity from a white sheet of paper to put together these two great business units and a dealer network across the company, or I’m sorry, across the country. And that was a lot of fun. I was… traveling up to Kohler one or two weeks a month and then working remotely the other one or two or the other two or three weeks. We had a great group of people and the dealer network was fabulous as well. And then I had an opportunity to buy a company outside of the home improvement or home services industry. It was in the smart home technology business and I became the majority owner there. and wanted to really grow that business. It’s very much a mom and pop industry, very bifurcated. There aren’t many big companies. Geek Squad is really kind of the only national company, and they’re really more of a service business. And so we tried to make several acquisitions. We weren’t successful. And so… At that same time, Safe Showers came on my radar. When I was at LeafGuard, we were the first seven Bath Planet franchises in the country. In addition to LeafGuard, we had seven Bath Planet franchises. And I really loved that business. And so I was looking for an opportunity to get back into it. And Safe Showers was a moderate-sized company in San Antonio. And I saw their advertisement. I called the owner. And we had breakfast. And two months later, my wife and I owned the business. I was still running the smart home technology company, Sterling. And so my wife, who is a CPA by training and a corporate CFO and controller, was kind of thrust into the president and CEO job.
Janet:
Yeah. And that’s where we met you, was through Safe Showers.
Chris:
That’s right. That’s right. And so… We ended up selling Sterling Home Technologies to a strategic buyer who was very interested in our business. We had grown the business. We had more than doubled it. And he was very interested in moving into the San Antonio market. So that gave me the opportunity about four, little over four years ago to go into Safe Showers full-time. My wife moved into the CFO role and that’s kind of where we, how we got into Safe Showers.
Janet:
What a story. So tell me, what is the time frame here? What year did you leave, quote unquote, corporate America and start this string of entrepreneurial? I mean, what I’m hearing is a thread of, you’re the turnaround guy.
Chris:
What
Janet:
are the dates on that?
Chris:
So I left corporate America in 1999, right before Y2K. And then I did the… the company in San Antonio that was on the verge of bankruptcy. It was about a $20 million business. And like I said, we got that profitable. That really was only a year. And then I went into the $500 million business, promotional products business. We were the largest in the world. And I was there about four and a half years. And then I left there, had the opportunity to, with Leaf Guard when our son got sick and we needed to move back to San Antonio. That was nine years and that ended in 2013. And then I did the Kohler for six years. I did Sterling for about three and a half years and then Safe Showers. We bought Safe Showers in April of 2018. Okay. And we sold it to a private equity firm in September 30th of 2022. Yeah.
Caitlyn:
And that’s where we begin our story. No, no, that’s amazing. I mean, and we’re going to dive more into that and how that like you end up selling all safe showers and so forth. But what do you think contributed most to the growth and success of safe showers in those years that you guys owned it?
Chris:
You know, it was it was. Timing was, we were the benefit of timing.
Janet:
What do you mean by that?
Chris:
Well, so we bought it in 2018 and my wife was running it and I was kind of doing the sales and marketing on nights and weekends and she was running the installers and what have you. And one of the things that was extremely interesting to me about Safe Showers is they had a solid surface product that they had an exclusive on for Austin and San Antonio. And nobody else really had a product like that. And so I felt like we had a very unique product and I felt like we could really grow the business. And then obviously COVID came around. And I told my wife, I said, you know, we’re going to double down on this deal. Every home improvement company I knew of stopped advertising almost exclusively. And so I could buy TV for 20 cents. What’s that?
Janet:
We lived through that chapter. We can attest to it. It was like March, January, February, March of 2020. We’re really strong for our entire client base. Then the You know, the world pandemic was announced. And then April, across the board, people slashed their advertising. They let go of their canvassing team. You know. Stopped marketing. They stopped marketing. But then in like mid-May, they came back crazy. Anyway, not to interrupt you, but I was. So you saw, though, that you could buy TV spots online.
Chris:
Really for 20 cents on the dollar.
Caitlyn:
Right. Wow. So you get the brand exploded then.
Chris:
Well, I told my wife, I said, this is either going to be a pretty good move or we’re going to go bankrupt. So how
Janet:
did you know that TV was so cheap? Did you just have a guess or did you call up a sales rep and say, how did you know that?
Chris:
Well, I’ve been doing TV, you know, for 20 plus years in this business. And I know all the reps, you know, we’re out to lunch every couple months. And so they keep me apprised whenever there’s opportunities to buy, you know, special deals or what have you. So, you know, they called up and they said, and my first reaction was, are you crazy? And then I thought about it and I just, and they told me everybody has stopped advertising. And we were also considered an essential business in Texas.
Janet:
Right.
Chris:
And so we could go to work. We weren’t locked down. And I just thought, this is going to be great. We lost a pretty significant amount of money for two months. Really? And then it was a rocket ship from there.
Janet:
You just did it on faith. You just white knuckled it and said, I think this is going to work.
Chris:
I did. I mean, I thought it was a great opportunity to grow our brand and really become really well-known. And it worked. It could have very easily gone the other way, but it worked.
Janet:
I mean, I have to ask, were there some sleepless nights those first two months when you were losing money?
Chris:
There were. I mean, we were paying our installers. We were paying all of our employees what they were making because we didn’t want to lose them. We had a great team. And, you know, it was hard to write those checks, but I just felt like, you know, this isn’t going to last forever. And I said, we’ll give it four or five months. And if it doesn’t turn around and, you know, month three, it really started to turn around for
Janet:
us. So this would have been April and May of 2020.
Chris:
Yeah, May and June, really. May, June, July, kind of that timeframe.
Janet:
And you were just doubling down, tripling down on this low cost TV because the inventory was there. because the other advertisers had pulled out.
Chris:
That’s right. And I mean, we were in our TV commercials and so I became, you know, I became pretty well known in San Antonio and Austin.
Caitlyn:
Exactly.
Chris:
But it was just a great, we were just blessed to have the opportunity and we were able to keep our team and really grow the business.
Janet:
So bringing it up a little closer to date, that was 2020. Fast forward, several years. Let’s talk about the next chapter. So you doubled down, you ran the ads, growth really started to happen. At what point did you know that you were going to sell or look for a buyer? And then what did you do to prepare and navigate the company with an exit in mind?
Chris:
Well, my plan was never to sell the business. Quite frankly, it was to grow the business. And I had hoped one of my two boys would be interested in and coming in to run the business. They both lived in Austin. Neither one of them was really interested in taking over the business. And then I got a call from a friend of mine who said that he was in process of selling his business and he wanted to refer me to the guys that had bought him. And I told him I really wasn’t interested and I kept getting calls over the next six months from private equity firms. They they were looking they wanted to be in Texas and they really wanted our product line as well.
Caitlyn:
OK.
Chris:
And so, you know, I finally I finally started to say, OK, well, I’ll listen. And that’s really that’s really where we made the decision. We we actually came within seven days of selling to a different, much larger private equity firm. And then in 2021, when the stock market, actually I was off by a year, we sold in 2023, not 2022. I
Caitlyn:
held up three. Yeah, I thought, yeah.
Chris:
Yeah. In 2022, we were within seven days of closing on a deal with another private equity firm. And And I can tell you, when you go through the due diligence process of a small to mid-sized company like we were, it is draining. I mean, they ask for so much information. The process went about three and a half months. We’re literally within seven business days. and they shut down all acquisitions worldwide. They’re a multi-billion dollar deal. And quite frankly, we were totally dismayed. We had spent a lot of money and a ton of time and it was really my wife and I and our CPA and our attorney because we didn’t want our team to know. And so we were spending a lot of time outside of the office and then really had no intention again of selling And then the attorney who handled our deal that fell apart called about seven or eight months later and said, I have another private equity firm that really wants to talk to you. And I said, I’m not interested. Just
Janet:
so fatigued by the process you’d just gotten out of.
Chris:
Right. And in my past, I’ve either personally, I bought a couple of companies personally, but- For Corporate America, I’ve bought over 20. I’ve been the lead person or the only person on the team where we acquired over 20 businesses. So I’ve been through it, but as a company buying it, it’s very different than a private equity firm.
Janet:
In what way? I mean, we’ve kind of been on the outside world. looking in through the glass where, you know, we service this industry, but we’ve seen private equity come in and buy up so many of these businesses and many, honestly, of our own clients. So I’m just, I’m super curious, like what’s the difference between a company acquiring another company and private equity? from your perspective
Chris:
yeah i’ll put it to you this way the biggest difference is the amount of due diligence and the level of due diligence the private equity firm i said to this firm i said i can’t believe the amount of money that you are spending on this deal and he said look we have institutional investors you know some of the biggest you know uh endowments in the country and in the world are investors in their fund a lot of which have been in the news in the last six months. And they have to go through exactly the same process if they’re buying a $20 million business or if they’re buying a $2 billion business because they have to protect their shareholders or their investors. And they commit to that when they raise those billions of dollars. Whereas a strategic acquirer, they’re going to go through most of that same process, but they don’t have, you know, the private equity guys, they had five, six different teams of outside advisors. And they have to prove to the private equity firm that they’re spending their money well. So they’re looking at every tiny little minute detail. Whereas the strategic acquirer really knows and understands the business. And so they’re asking all of the same questions, but it’s a different process. They know what they’re talking about. These outside advisors, they may be working on an auto parts deal tomorrow. And then the next day they may be working on a, a hair care, you know, just they could be working on anything and they go through, they send you pages and pages and pages, the legal, the due diligence on the accounting firms, the, you know, verifying that your numbers are what you say they are. And it’s all, they both do it, but it’s just, you know, time flies with the private equity firm.
Janet:
So for our listeners who are interested In their business right now, their business is doing well, you know, by small business measures. Maybe they’ve hit $12 million and they’ve got their eyes on 20. And they don’t have any personal experience on either end, buying or selling a company. It’d be their first time. And then private equity comes calling. I think what I’m hearing you say is it might not be the quote-unquote easy exit that some of these companies current home improvement owners may think it is because they may be hearing at shows, oh, so-and-so sold, you know, so-and-so got bought by XYZ private equity. How much, so you told us three months. I don’t know if you want to share this, but you said it was expensive, the deal that fell through. So you were in conversations with private equity. So there’s an investment of time to sell your business. What did you have to, to pay out of pocket to financial folks or lawyers on your end while you were marching towards that the day you signed?
Chris:
Sure. I mean, we have a confidentiality agreement, so I can’t share the exact numbers, but it was well into the six figures.
Janet:
Wait, of what you spent on legal fees?
Chris:
That’s right. Legal and accounting and different… things. You know, my wife handled most of the accounting. She’s a public company, CPA, CFO from her history. So our books were in great shape. That’s not normally the case. We ran our company according to GAP and, you know, just like we were a public company. And, you know, we didn’t put personal expenses through it. Occasionally we would, but not to the degree that most family businesses do. So we were pretty good in that regard. I mean, they’re always looking for everything they can find. But the thing that saved us the second time around is we used our same attorney. He switched law firms and he called us up and he said, hey, for, I think it was five or $10,000, I can move your whole data room over to my new company.
Janet:
And
Chris:
so when the new private equity firm came calling All we had to do was update a lot of the stuff because we had already had it from a year prior or nine months prior.
Janet:
You could leverage the investment that you had already made in the due diligence from the previous potential sell.
Chris:
Yeah, that’s right. I mean, I wish we hadn’t gone through it twice because it’s so fun. But we had a great team of advisors. Our lawyer was great. He’d done everything. multiple ones of these. Our accounting partner was head of mergers and acquisitions for a large national firm, and then he started his own company. So we had a great team working with us.
Caitlyn:
That’s awesome. I mean, so location was important to the buyer, your product line. Was there anything else that was attractive?
Chris:
Sure. I mean, our revenue, we were growing aggressively. We were The two prior years before we were acquired, we were growing, you know, 30% plus a year, one year over 40%. So that was attractive. And we were also very profitable. That’s, you know, I’m a sales and marketing guy. And so I believe if you’re not growing, the market’s going to relegate you as irrelevant, but you have to grow profitably or it doesn’t matter. And we were… you know, they told us that we were one of the most, if not the most profitable as a percentage of revenue of companies that they had looked at. So we were, we were proud of that fact. But they were obviously looking to add that to their bottom line because they’re trying to grow and, you know, and then flip private equity is going to flip it in three to five years, typically.
Caitlyn:
Right. And I don’t want to skip out on the marketing side of this. I mean, we talked a lot about the play you made with TV during the pandemic to get your brand out there as well. I mean, marketing had to have been a part of what got you to where you were. I mean, any tips, tricks you want to share there?
Chris:
Sure. I mean, you know, when we bought the business, we were generating like 98% of our own leads. Right. I started to see social media really coming on. Again, I’m a marketing person by my education. And that’s what I did as I came up through corporate America was primarily marketing. I did a lot of operations, but primarily a lot of marketing. And I started to see the marketplace changing out there, not just for us, but in general. And so I felt our leads were getting more expensive. TV was getting less and less effective. There’s all these streaming services. So we still do all of that. We do radio, TV, newspaper. We do every print thing out there. But we started to get in and dabble with lead aggregators. I can tell you that was really necessary, but I can tell you that’s a full-time job because you have got to stay on those guys. You’ve got to be… You’ve got to be fully transparent with them, sharing your data, your disposition data, and make sure you have the right partners. I’ve always moved marketing dollars around. I have several reports that I use where I track, you know, really at the end of the day, the number that makes the most meaning for me is the cost of marketing. Yeah. That’s where the rubber meets the road. But I track a lot of other metrics that are kind of upstream from that. And I can tell when something’s either not working or used to work and doesn’t work anymore. So really keeping your finger on that pulse or having somebody that does that for you. And that’s my training, so I did it. And then the other thing for us was we’re really involved in the community.
Caitlyn:
Yes.
Chris:
San Antonio is a big military area. I come from a big military family. My dad was a World War II fighter pilot. So we got into the community. It’s a way to give back. We didn’t do it as a marketing ploy, but we give away free showers every year to needy veterans and lots of other people too, not just veterans. and that word gets around and and when people you know referrals and all of that was super important to us but at the end of the day too reviews and google reviews specifically are really critical and that was my bible and we we felt like we had the best product and the best service in the market and i guarded that just like profusely
Janet:
yeah so that’s amazing safe showers is sold You are consulting now, right? Is that correct?
Chris:
I am. I was required to run the business for a year. And then I consulted with the parent company, Sage Home, for the next eight to nine months. I just finished that at the end of May. And I’ve decided that I’m going to start a new chapter in my life. And I’m on several boards. And I love that. So I want to do more.
Caitlyn:
There’s the cutout. Chad, I’m not sure what time. It’s like 2.28. So I’ll at the
Chris:
minute marker. Consulting from a marketing and sales perspective. You’re going to
Janet:
have to back up. You dropped out for a second. So we caught that you’re on boards now, but we missed what came after that.
Chris:
The juice.
Janet:
Yes.
Chris:
Yeah, so I’ve been on eight to ten boards now. I’m currently on two. We just sold one of the companies to a strategic acquirer. And I want to do more of that board business. I really enjoy that, working with the ownership, the families, et cetera, many times helping them to prepare the business for sale. But I’m also doing some really targeted consulting from a marketing and strategic planning and preparing to sale business. of the business and working with the senior management. So that’s what I’m doing. It’s called Eidlin Marketing and Consulting. And I’m enjoying that next phase of my life.
Janet:
So for our listeners, are you open to working with home improvement contractors who are on a trajectory where they’re growing fast and they want to sell? Or tell us your ideal consulting client.
Chris:
So in addition to the board work, it’s really, it can be companies who are looking to sell in the next two to five years and they want to prepare for that because in most cases, if we start early enough, we can get them 50 to 100% more in a purchase price than if they just, you know, don’t prepare for that.
Janet:
Wow.
Chris:
So I work with, I’ve, I’m currently working with one company that is in that process preparing to sell, and I’ve worked with multiple others in the past. I also work with companies who are looking to make acquisitions and helping them. I worked with a company in New York last year, and they cut what they were willing to pay, and they acquired the company by over 50% after they did the due diligence that I worked through with them. They
Janet:
would have paid too much.
Chris:
Oh, they would have paid more than twice what they ultimately paid for the business. Good business.
Janet:
They weren’t looking under the covers enough.
Chris:
They weren’t. They were taking the former owner’s word for all of the facts that he gave them.
Janet:
You know, this topic is so fascinating to me, and we see it from the agency’s perspective. We work with the owners and operators of these home improvement companies, and I’ve personally seen… a couple of different perspectives, but we’re always like an observer. We’re never in the middle of the deal. And we’ve seen multiple of our clients sell through strategic acquisitions to a larger nationally known brand within their home improvement segment. And those sellers, those owners that sold seem to be really pleased with what happened. We’ve had other owners that have sold to private equity. We’ve had multiple clients that have sold to private equity. And that seems to be a little bit of a mixed bag from what we hear from our clients about their experience working through that period where they’re still consulting back, you know, as the previous owner. And then on the flip side of that, we’ve had a few clients who were pretty small businesses, like 5 million or under, and then they bought another small business. And I have been sort of perpetually shocked at the lack of due diligence that seems to go into these deals where they buy this company that’s a pretty small potatoes company and then it’s after they’ve bought it they find out all this stuff that i feel like is just so basic um i mean do you It sounds like you’re operating at a much higher level with higher dollar volume, and maybe you’re not into some of the nonsense that we’ve seen. No,
Chris:
I actually work with smaller companies as well. Like I said, I worked with that company. The company they bought was a $2.5 million company, and they actually had a verbal… LOI, it was not in writing for more than twice what they ended up paying for it after we worked together for about four to five months. And so size is not really the determining factor. The issue with size is typically the smaller companies, they can’t afford to bring on the people they need in many cases to help them or they don’t want to. So you gravitate towards companies. Most of the companies I work with, I would say are in the 10 to $50 million range. And I can tell you that the private equity firm that bought us, we’ve been very pleased. I actually was glad ultimately the first deal didn’t work out because a lot of my friends sold to that private equity firm They got taken out by another private equity firm because of performance. And most of those people are not happy at all. We’re really happy. They promoted several of our people to higher level jobs and the business continues to grow really nicely. So it’s worked out for everybody.
Janet:
Yeah, I think you really are. Your story and your career set you up in such a fantastic way. having been at the table of so many acquisitions to, I mean, that’s kind of what I’m hearing is that you, you didn’t just fall off the turnip truck when you started talking to these guys, you probably knew the questions to ask and, you know, how to engage with an attorney, how to prepare your books. So we’re, I guess we’re kind of fangirling here. We’re fangirling. We
Caitlyn:
definitely, you know, know our listeners could benefit from your services
Janet:
too. So, I mean, I, I’m going to go out on a limb and say I think 100% of our client base, current, past, and future, if they were really honest, they start with an exit in mind, whether it’s their kids are going to take over the business or they’re going to sell to a larger player, a strategic sale, or now that private equity is in the mix. Whether those opinions are well formed or not, I think that all of our clients are, you know, they’ve got this game plan in mind, like I’m going to grind it out and then I’m going to cash out. I don’t know if you wanted to talk to a little bit about that mentality and whether or not you think it’s a healthy way to approach things or a realistic way to approach things.
Chris:
Well, yeah, I’d be happy to. talk about it for a minute. I think it’s important to have your strategy. And that’s one of the things when I work with clients, I really get crystal clear on what is the outcome. Do you wanna sell? Do you wanna grow this so your kids can take it over? Do you wanna sell to a strategic acquirer? Do you wanna sell for the most money? Do you wanna sell to a company that has similar core values to yours? All of those are important questions. You know, one of the things that I think is a kind of a reality check out there is we kind of caught the very end of the tail of the larger multiples that these firms were paying and you know um multiples have definitely come down in the last couple of years i personally think that’s probably a good thing but you know one of the biggest things that i find when when like you described, is that these CEOs slash owners, they’re really, and I was this way for a lot of my career, you’re just working in the business and you’re not working on the business. And I had a business coach one time who really forced me to take two hours every week at first, and then it became a half a day every week to really work on the business.
Janet:
Yeah.
Chris:
And you really start to get clear on a lot of things. And I think it’s just fine to have a mindset that you want to sell the business because then you run the business in the manner that is going to optimize your return.
Caitlyn:
There you go.
Chris:
But that’s not for everybody. Like you said, there’s a lot of people who wished, and I’ve talked to many of them, and several of them recently. And they’ve said, you know, the last 18 months or two years since they were acquired has been the worst time of their life. But on the other side, I’ve talked to a lot that are very happy and they, you know, they’ve made generational wealth and they can now give back more and they can do really good things in the community and for their families. So it just depends upon the individual, but I think it’s important that they really understand what their goals are.
Caitlyn:
Yeah, this has been so amazing, Chris. I mean, literally, we always are like, it’s going to only be 20 to 30 minutes. I think we could have sat here and talked to you forever and ever and ever and ever. Especially if you let me keep asking questions. And they’re good questions. But I know your time is precious, and I just want to offer your services. We’re going to give your contact information in the show notes if anybody’s listening and wants to find out more about you and how they can be in touch with you. Where else? I mean, verbally, if anybody’s driving around listening to this, how can they get in touch with you, Chris?
Chris:
Sure. And you’re welcome to put this in the notes on the podcast. My email is ccedlen, that’s C-C-E-D-E-L-E-N, at gmail.com.
Caitlyn:
Okay.
Chris:
And my cell phone is 210-708-3877. I’m happy to have a conversation with anybody that this triggers some thoughts or concerns wants to ask me a question or run anything by me, I’m happy to help however I can.
Janet:
Oh, that’s amazing. What a generous offer. So, listeners, if you are trying to grow or scale or someday sell, this episode has been packed with wisdom and was crafted just for you. So, we encourage you, if that’s a path that you’re on and you want to get some truly expert advice, reach out to Chris. He has a Lifetime of knowledge. And so kind. Personally. In this industry and in mergers and acquisitions with private equity, with strategic sales, if that’s the journey that you want to be on, Chris is the guy you want to talk to. So thank you for joining us for another episode of Digital Marketing for Contractors. If you will give us 20 minutes. In this case, it was probably more like 45 minutes. Thank you. Our goal is to try to give you actionable insights to help you run a better business. So please give us a like, share this with a friend or a peer, leave us a review, subscribe, do all the things, click all the buttons. And contact Chris. And contact Chris. Thank you, Chris. Thank you so much. You were so generous with your time. I learned a lot and I hope our listeners did as well.
Speaker 00:
Digital Marketing for Contractors is created by Fat Cat Strategies. For more information, visit fatcatstrategies.com.
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Sasha:
Yeah. So, I mean, there’s a lot that, you know, goes into AI, but I feel like how to connect with it in today’s day and age, there are pretty much four main points. So first it’s people are still going to hire people. There’s also trust is the new currency, so that’s super important. And then also just remembering that your human story really does matter still. And knowing that AI isn’t here to replace connection, it’s just going to give you some time to get your time back.
Janet:
Okay, so if we look at it that way, AI is really kind of part of this whole evolution of trust. How we use technology.
Sasha:
Yeah, you know, I like to look at it as not… like a software, but more of a partnership. You know, a lot of contractors, I mean, we’re digital marketing agencies, so we partner with a lot of contractors. And I think it’s a good way to look at AI as being a partnership to help you in those aspects where maybe, you know, what we do, we give contractors back some time in their day because we take that load on. And I feel like AI kind of contributes in the same way, depending on
Janet:
how you use it. Almost like a personal assistant that’s going to give you minutes and hours back in your day.
Sasha:
Exactly. And so many different outlets for it too.
Janet:
I love that. So if you’re saying, if what your thesis is for this episode is that there is a way that contractors can maintain that human touch in an AI world, and your first point is that people still hire people, tell me what you mean by that. And what does that thought have to do with AI?
Sasha:
Yeah. So, you know, like at the end of the day, People who are looking for those remodeling projects or whatever you do as far as contracting goes, those homeowners are still going to want to hire people, not AI. But it’s awesome if you can use it as a mode to get them there. To generate the lead. Exactly. So before you can sell and install that job, you do have to generate the lead. So AI, again, it’s just a partner to help you get there. So it can help with the lead conversion, lead generation. So
Janet:
it’s going to help you get your foot in the door. Exactly. But that homeowner is still going to hire a human to remodel their bathroom.
Sasha:
Yeah, they want to work directly with a person, not a
Janet:
robot. At this point, as of July 2025, so far robots aren’t putting roofs on.
Sasha:
You know, I’ve seen them walk upstairs on some videos, but I’ve not seen them put any roofs on or
Janet:
put on siding. It’s weird. You’re talking about like those…
Sasha:
Like the human-like
Janet:
robots. Yeah, the Boston Dynamics. Have you seen the big dog?
Sasha:
I have.
Janet:
It’s creepy. There’s one that almost looks like a dog giraffe where it’s… big neck has like this arm on the end of it and they can run and anyway so I
Sasha:
have not seen that but that sounds
Janet:
terrifying after we record this podcast so We took a little side trip down sci-fi lane. There may be a day where robots are coming to kill all of us, but that day’s not today. Good. I’m not ready to go yet. I’m not ready to go yet. And I think all of the contractors out there still want to think that they can roll up in a truck and do a job that a robot can’t do. And that is still true today. But what we’re saying is you can get some of your time back by leveraging AI and that homeowners want to connect with humans. But right now where AI is really kind of in your world. Just use it as a sidekick. Use it as a sidekick and it could help you generate those leads. Absolutely.
Sasha:
Yeah, especially the chatbots. You know, we’ve seen a lot of good success with chatbots for multiple different clients. And I mean, personally, when I’m looking somewhere, if there’s a chatbot, I’m going to use it before I call someone. Oh,
Janet:
absolutely. And, you know, several episodes ago, we had on the founder of Heavyset, which, you know, there’s a lot of AI in the heavyset tech stack um so if you guys haven’t checked out heavyset i would definitely go it’s an awesome software it’s awesome software it’s um you know there’s a form component to it there’s a chat component to it and depending on when this episode comes out what we have heard from the founder is they are also working on ai driven call centers so oh wow so like To your point, Sasha, you go to a website and you’re not really ready to talk to somebody yet or fill out a form. Yeah, I
Sasha:
just want a little bit more information
Janet:
or I have a question. You’re willing to interact with that chat bot, which can be driven by AI. And soon, by the end of this year, contractors could be able to have call centers staffed by what sound like humans but aren’t. That’s awesome. So again, that gives people time back. Yep. But it’s all kind of driving towards helping a homeowner feel like, yes, this is the company that I want to hire. And so you’ve taken some of those tasks off of your plate to your point, giving you time back. And then that time you’re going to spend in the home selling the job and installing the job.
Sasha:
Right. And I feel like that can also be a little bit more cost effective, too, with having a call center that is AI. Absolutely.
Janet:
And they can be 24-7. Exactly.
Sasha:
Yep.
Janet:
So, so I love where we’re going with this. So the other thing that you said at the top of this episode, you said people still want to hire people. And then you also said trust is the new currency. What did you mean by that?
Sasha:
Yeah. So it’s really important that you’re still able to show, you know, that you are a human company and that you have people who want to work with you and who appreciate the jobs that you’ve done and they appreciate want to show off your good work. So, okay, here’s an example. Okay. So I don’t want to go, let’s say I’m going out to eat. I don’t want to go to a restaurant that has two and a half stars on Google when I want good food, a good experience and nice wait staff. Why and how would I avoid a restaurant that has that rating? because of trust. You know, I want to trust that when I spend my time and money at a restaurant, I am going to have the experience that I’m looking for.
Janet:
Yeah, good food, good experience. You’re not going to have a GI issue later.
Sasha:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. But that’s a big reason why people check out reviews. Because of that trust component. Just the other day, I was scheduling a birthday dinner for a friend looking for where to make a reservation. And ultimately, it came down to the star reviews that the restaurant had. We
Janet:
were in
Sasha:
between a couple and the reviews really sold us on it. So, you know,
Janet:
it just helps. So when you are looking online, you are looking for signals that you can trust. Yes. That the company that you put your time and energy into and money is going to deliver an experience that’s valuable to you. Exactly. Exactly. And so, um, so if trust is the new currency, then, um, how does AI play into helping contractors demonstrate that they are a trustworthy company? I mean, we know it’s all about the reviews, but what role does AI have in that?
Sasha:
So AI can be really helpful with… Let’s say you want to get a review from a job you just completed. Well, there’s so many features with AI where you can just automatically, when you market in your CRM that the job was closed or the job was completed, it will go ahead and send out a text or an email to your customers asking them to leave you a review. And that’s just a super easy way. You don’t even have to think about it. Right. It’s just going to send it out. Automate. Yep.
Janet:
So automations have been around for a while, but I think what’s exciting that we’ve really seen the landscape change just this calendar year is other software companies that serve this industry have started to incorporate more AI components into these automations to help you generate reviews. For example, one of our partners that we like to work with, Marlamar, review generation software, they’ve rolled out some new AI features. So I guess what I’m saying is like, I’m kind of agreeing with you that you’re saying trust is the new currency. And
Sasha:
AI can help you generate that trust from people you’ve worked with.
Janet:
And do it by helping you take some tasks off of your plate that used to be more manual to give you time back.
Sasha:
Again, use it as a partner.
Janet:
Use it as a partner. Okay, so where are we in the story? So people still hire people. Trust is the new currency. And then you made another point at the top of the episode. I think you said, you know, in this AI world, your human story still matters to you. Tell me a little bit more about what you meant by that.
Sasha:
Yeah, so essentially when someone’s going to work with you, say it’s a couple thousand dollar or tens of thousand dollar project, they kind of want to get a feel of who you are and who they might be working with. Um, like whether you’re veteran owned, is it a family owned company, that sort of thing. Do we know who the business owner is or maybe who I’m going to be talking to on the phone? Um, so it’s really important that, you know, one, you have some important team members listed on your website, um, which is that human face. Exactly. Yep. Maybe have a picture, maybe have a little bio with just some fun facts about them. Um, And yeah, so that definitely helps to show the human aspect, but also having project pictures on. I’m a sucker for a good before and after picture.
Janet:
Everybody loves a good before and after.
Sasha:
And those are really great for just kind of helping show those potential customers what their vision could be, or even maybe giving them some design ideas or introducing them to a new color of siding that they didn’t know was out there or a new type of shake that sort of thing so it’s really good for examples for showing off your work and showing that it is that quality work and
Janet:
so that human story so if if online search is being more influenced by AI at least today the goal is still to get somebody to your site and So you can convert them into a lead. once they’re motivated, once they start to interact with you, then that’s when some AI can do the heavy lifting, either through a chat bot or an AI driven call center to help you convert that lead. Is that what you’re saying?
Sasha:
Exactly. And honestly, it kind of goes back to my first point that people still hire people. So yeah, you can use AI to help get you those people, but once you’ve got them you have to show them, you know, who you are. Right. You’re not going to make friends with someone and you have no idea what their personality is. Right. You want to get to know them before you ask them for coffee.
Janet:
Right. So it’s kind of the same, kind of the same idea there. Before you pay somebody $60,000. Exactly. To park their truck in front of your front yard for three weeks. And
Sasha:
tear something off the side of their house.
Janet:
Yeah, they want to make sure. You want to know who you are. They want to make sure you’re not a criminal and you’re not going to destroy something. Yeah, so it’s trust, it’s human connection. And I think that kind of brings us to the last point that you made, and that is AI is not replacing people. It’s giving us our time back. And I love what you said at the top of this episode, that if we can shift our thinking away from such a sci-fi version of what we think AI is and look at it more like a partner, a partner that can help you make decisions take some repetitive tasks off of your plate and give you some time back.
Sasha:
Yeah. And it also gives you time to like actually connect with your clients and maybe show up a little bit more in your community to get that local brand awareness. So people kind of have you top of mind already. And it just gives you the areas back to run those parts of the business that really actually do need a human kind of driving the show there. Right.
Janet:
Right. So automate what you can, leverage AI where you can, and then take the time that you’ve saved to invest back in your business.
Sasha:
Yeah, and just remember, it’s not erasing the human connection. It’s just going to allow you to create a little bit more space to add that in.
Janet:
Oh, I like the way you put that. Oh, thank you. Sasha, coming with the wisdom. So, you know, I know you work day in and day out with clients on the front lines. I don’t work that closely with clients anymore. I’m now partially retired, so loving that life. But you’re the one that’s on the front lines with clients. What do you see that’s really winning right now?
Sasha:
So really, the clients who are really winning are the ones that understand the ratio of AI to human interaction and human contact. So, you know, kind of going back to what we said, they’re using AI to go ahead and gather all of the data, automate that stuff that you don’t really want to do, but you just kind of have to, all the boring stuff. And then they also use it to streamline their systems and just make their day-to-day easier. but they are still showing up with that human voice in their community, for their company, for their employees. You know, like for example, and I think we may have touched on this earlier, but I’ve seen some businesses using AI to send those automatic follow-ups, but instead of using just a templated dry message, it’s just a little short video from the owner or even from their project manager who was on site. And It just gives a little bit of personality. And
Janet:
those videos are somehow AI is playing a role in the production of those?
Sasha:
It’s sending it out. Oh. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
Janet:
So that feels very personal. It does. To the customer. But on the
Sasha:
back end, it’s AI.
Janet:
It was aided by AI. That is very cool. Yeah. So gone are the days of AI. Dear customer, we appreciate your business. It’s more like, hi, Susie and John, we loved installing your deck.
Sasha:
Thanks for welcoming us into your home type thing. Yeah.
Janet:
Yeah. Wow. With customized project pictures. That is winning. So outside of, you know, our own client base, have you seen some other things that, you know, just kind of on the internet that you feel like are real winning stories? Yes,
Sasha:
I have. So I am chronically online, so I see a lot of things, but one of the biggest uses of AI that I’ve seen is in some well-known brands like Duolingo. Almost everyone has heard of Duolingo at this point.
Janet:
I’ll interrupt. In case you haven’t heard of Duolingo, it’s an app that will help you learn a foreign language, and it has a really cute owl mascot and lots of cartoons, and you can win all kinds of points just for learning simple words.
Sasha:
Yes, it’s quite fun. I am relearning I tried
Janet:
to learn Spanish a couple years ago and then it was on me, not on Duolingo. Anyway, what have you seen Duolingo do?
Sasha:
Yeah, so it’s really cool how they’re able to blend AI with personality in a way that feels, I mean, to me at least, super intentional. You know, the AI might be recommending my next lesson or, you know, helping me purchase a new product. Like I’ve seen it at Sephora too, when I’m shopping online. What is Sephora? Sephora is a makeup store. It’s a big brand makeup store, but you know, so they might be recommending that or helping you find what you want using an AI assistant, but it sounds like a person is talking to you. It’s got all of the same verbiage, the same inflections.
Janet:
And it’s based on your previous purchases and things that you’ve looked at, say on the Sephora site.
Sasha:
Yeah.
Unknown:
Yeah.
Sasha:
Or
Janet:
on the Duolingo lessons that you’ve, like, it’s kind of tailored to your journey.
Sasha:
Yeah, I mean, I feel like maybe people are a little bit more familiar with things like Amazon. So, you know, Amazon has Rufus, their AI assistant that they use. And it, yeah, so when I use it on Amazon, it recognizes my past purchases. And I can be like, can you tell me when I purchased this product? This book bag.
Janet:
I am going to have to admit publicly and vulnerably that I don’t know what Rufus is.
Sasha:
Oh, Janet. And I order… It’s like Claude AI. It’s like ChatGPT,
Janet:
but it’s Amazon’s version. But I order an obscene amount of stuff from Amazon. Well, how have you not seen it?
Unknown:
I don’t know.
Janet:
Because I’m old and infirm, I think. Well, you’re not that old. I’m not. I didn’t… Where does it
Sasha:
show up? Does it just pop up? Usually it has like a little bubble that says… I don’t remember exactly what it says, but something like, Rufus is here to help you. And then it also
Janet:
has- I’ve never seen that.
Sasha:
You know, like the little sparkle? Usually it’s in the top corner. That’s the AI.
Janet:
Okay.
Sasha:
So if you click it, it’ll help you.
Janet:
Okay. I’ve never clicked it. What I have noticed- Give it a shot next time. Is that it will recommend sizes for me.
Sasha:
Oh, I’ve not seen that.
Janet:
That’s cool. So if I’m looking at a pair of shorts, it’s like- Based on your previous orders, we think you should order a large.
Sasha:
Oh, that’s pretty neat. I’m
Janet:
like, okay. All right, let’s see. Extra large, but whatever. You
Sasha:
think you know me.
Janet:
You think you do. But honestly, when I’ve gone with the size recommendations based on my previous orders, it’s worked. It’s worked. So I’m going to have to check out Rufus. So I guess bringing this back to contractors, you know, Things have changed so fast just this calendar year. Oh
Sasha:
my gosh, it’s crazy.
Janet:
I mean, the pace of change has just been insane. And we’ve seen… online lead generation tactics, you know, based on search engine results have changed dramatically just in the past six months. And in the past four months, I’d say almost every piece of software that we interact with that you guys who are listening interact with as well, whether it’s your CRM or some text-based marketing software or review generation software, I’m struggling to think of a single piece of software that hasn’t incorporated some AI assistant into it.
Sasha:
Yeah, that would take some thinking.
Janet:
Yeah, I can’t think of it. To try
Sasha:
and figure it out.
Janet:
Yeah, it seems like every day I log on to something, there’s a new little AI bot that pops up. I
Sasha:
mean, even Gmail now.
Janet:
Yeah, they’re summarizing. And in our internal staff Gchat, the most hilarious thing I can do is be out of the office for the day. What did it say when you got back? Oh, God. It’s like, it’s always like… There’s usually cookies on the table and then people are, you know, complaining about the air conditioning. I
Sasha:
remember one time there, yeah, someone messaged something about cookies in the kitchen and then someone goes, oh, I’m going to be a cookie monster. And it goes, this person was a cookie monster for the cookies.
Janet:
Yeah, that was the AI summary in our small team Google team chat. So to wrap it all up, You guys are hardworking. You’re out there sometimes working in the sun, in the weather, installing roofs, installing siding, remodeling bathrooms, selling jobs, talking to homeowners. AI is here right now, not to kill us that we think. It could eventually. We’ve all seen Terminator. But for now, it seems like it’s here to give us some time back and take some routine tasks off of our plate. Yep. And so what you can do to stay human in this age of AI is show your face, literally. Yep. You know, add team photos and bios to your website. So you’re going to be leveraging AI search to drive traffic to your site, but when you get somebody on your site…
Sasha:
Show them who you are. Show them who you are.
Janet:
This is not new, but Lord, if it isn’t more important. Get serious about reviews. Day in and day out, it just keeps getting more important. Yep, yep. Because I would say, like… In this world, where now everybody’s sort of aware of more AI-generated content, we’re even more cautious, maybe with our time and money, and we really want to see that you are a locally-owned company that’s delivered good experiences for people.
Sasha:
Yep. And you know what? Another thing, if you search ChatGPT for, say, best home remodelers near me, sometimes it will pull from aggregators like… yelp or house or expertise and it goes off of the reviews who’s rated yeah who’s top rated oh
Janet:
my god
Sasha:
that’s that’s just one of the ways that it pulls but i didn’t even think about that yep we’ve been i mean internally you know you’ve been out living your life but i have been living my semi-retired doing so much work to figure out why are you showing up why is this company showing up but this company isn’t in those chat in those prompts yep we’re asking chat why did you show this person and not this person or this company and not that yes yes and it gives us a list you know they were rated higher here on multiple sites or they were official on the BBB website. So lots
Janet:
of different places it pulls in. So as homeowners start to shift where they search for answers, let’s say they’re no longer… as frequently firing up a Google browser, and instead they go straight to ChatGPT and say, who is the best bathroom remodeling contractor in my city? ChatGPT is going to reference online reviews and aggregate them.
Sasha:
And online listings as well.
Janet:
And listings and directories, and use that information as a way to recommend who is the quote-unquote best contractor. roofing contractor in your town or bathroom remodeler in your town.
Sasha:
Yeah. And you know what? That’s another cool thing that we’ve been doing internally for our clients is using AI to help us clean up those directories across the entire internet, making sure that your name is consistent across the internet, making sure that your address is the same, your phone number. And it would be really time consuming for us to go in and do it for every individual listing, but we’ve been using AI to help us with that, which which is awesome.
Janet:
Okay, this might make us sound schizophrenic and like we’re talking out of both sides of our face, but I think the lesson is you got to stay human in this world, but also you need to recognize that a lot of your content online, you’re writing it and positioning it for the
Sasha:
robots. Which is a big shift in the SEO strategy.
Janet:
Yeah. We’re writing for the robots, so the robots can then recommend your company back to real people. Exactly. So we have to appeal to the robots and then also to the humans. Yep. Wow. Brave new world. Brave, crazy new world. Well, as always, our job is to stay on top of this stuff, bring you the insights as we figure them out, and share them with you. The internet is changing. It’s changing fast. AI is playing. I mean, I think everybody thought AI was the story of 2024. I really think it’s the story of 2025. Like, legit this time. Yeah, I
Sasha:
think she’s just going to keep growing. Yeah, absolutely. Every year there will be something new out there.
Janet:
At this pace, it’s like every month. Yeah, seriously. It’s not every week. So if you enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you would give us a review. Please. Please give us a review. Share it with your friends and colleagues and subscribe so that you will be notified of future episodes. And as always, our goal is if you will give us 20 or 30 minutes, we will try to give you actionable insights on what it takes to win online and generate leads and promote your company online. So you can generate more revenue through your home improvement business. That’s our goal. That’s what we’re here to do. We appreciate you listening for another episode. Like us, subscribe, refer us to a friend, and we’ll see you on the next episode. Bye. Bye-bye.